Should people be allowed to burn the Qur'an or other holy books?

— Filed under: Breaking News, Politics & Government, People & Culture
Yes
46% (31 votes)
No
54% (37 votes)
Total votes: 68
Bernard's picture

I must confess it's a bit

I must confess it's a bit disturbing that roughly half of the responses have been "No", which would indicate that readers are not in favor of free speech.

anonymous's picture

Freedom

Is "Freedom"  by definition boundless?   I believe in freedom of speech, but I am leery of any belief that is 100% without exceptions.  That is like a cult--extremely rigid.

Bernard's picture

Cults and free speech are anathema

I am likewise leery of beliefs that allow no room for exceptions, but freedom of speech is not a set of beliefs like a religion is. It's more of a superstructure that makes the other beliefs possible and debatable.

Inherently and logically speaking, 100% unrestricted freedom of speech cannot be rigid. Freedom of speech is exactly the opposite of rigidity, by nature, by definition.

anonymous's picture

I wonder...

Anything that can be described has boundaries within the words.  In describing what "freedom of speech" is, your definition might end up as  a set of tenets.  If you say "total freedom,"  then you are describing something spiritual.  It seems like trying to describe Love or Peace.  Is there perfect Love or perfect Peace within the context of human situations?    I would say that freedom of speech usually has boundaries, too, except in the ideal.   But...it is not bad to be an idealist.   

A-non-y-mous's picture

what a profound insight right into the heart of the matter.

anonymous wrote:

Anything that can be described has boundaries within the words.  In describing what "freedom of speech" is, your definition might end up as  a set of tenets.  If you say "total freedom,"  then you are describing something spiritual.  It seems like trying to describe Love or Peace.  Is there perfect Love or perfect Peace within the context of human situations?    I would say that freedom of speech usually has boundaries, too, except in the ideal.   But...it is not bad to be an idealist.  

Great. Thanks for that contribution, you really jumped on the issue there. I don't know about everyone else but that pretty much rounds it up for me.

Nadia's picture

Definitely a NO

Quran, Bible, Torah, Vedas. You can mention any holy book ever existed in this world. Each represents a particular religion and a group of people practising what it teaches as well as those who claim to belong to the group but not practising. It represents those who believe in God or anything Supreme, be in visible or invisible. There is also freedom to choose what to believe in (including whether or not to believe in God) and I think this needs to be highly respected no matter how much you disagree with a religion. Allowing someone to burn a holy book means allowing that person to disrespect, offend and insult a particular group of people that may not even do anything wrong. Such person spreads pure hatred. Even if there is someone from a religious group doing something wrong and destructive, we have no right to generalise. Punish the culprit, but not those who are not involved. And absolutely not the holy book.

So here is how I would rephrase my answer to the question above: NO, people MUST NOT be allowed to burn Quran or other holy books.

Hewy's picture

It's not worth the paper it's written on.

Surely "Faith" if you have it is not dependent on the physical manifestation of a set of rules you obey but the rules themselves. 

IT IS JUST A BOOK, no matter what it contains, surely the contents are what's important or am I missing the point. If you study any religion you always find a flaw which indicates this very point. Each religion points out that it is what is inside you that matters and not what you will find in a book or place of worship. 

YES, people MUST be allowed to burn whatever the hell they like. Just as long as no-one is harmed in the process.

If you fear the burning of holy books you either have a very weak faith or a very limited understanding of faith as a concept. To possess faith you must also possess tolerance. 

My faith is strong enough to tolerate all religions even though my belief is that they are all wrong. My belief is that religion actually takes us away from spirituality and into the arms of doctrine, constraint, fear, suspicion and hatred. Religion serves only to separate and control the one-ness of the human condition. Yes, I know religions also tell us to love one another and the like but hey people, that is humanities default mode and if you need a book to tell you to love then you have serious problems. Maybe not you personally good reader but certainly the society you have been brought up in. For the society you are born into can dictate the outcome of the rest of your life if you let it, but we are beautiful creatures who should learn from the past and move on to new things instead of mourning it for fear of reprisal from whatever higher being it may suit your mental capacity to believe. 

Money may be the root of all evil but religion is a close second best. And why is this you may ask? Because religion is the biggest industry in the world baby and don't you ever forget it.

Peace and love to you and yours!

Nadia's picture

It's NOT just a book

To me, and I'm sure I'm not alone, it is NOT just a book. Yes I am fully aware that a holy book as a physical object is something that is manufactured (not sure if this is the right word, English is not my first language) but a holy book is like a guide book of what to do and what not. It contains what a certain religion teaches its followers and the words in it are the Revelations or the words of God. Probably not all holy books are like that, but Quran is. I don't tolerate burning holy books because to me it is a huge offense and insult. Since I'm a true believer I also believe that there will be a consequence of burning a holy book, whether it's during our life now or later in the afterlife.

If I were not tolerant I would avoid making friends with those having a different religion and beliefs.

The same as burning flags. It's an obvious NO-NO. A flag represents a country and its people. No country is perfect anyway and each has its own flaws for sure. But still, RESPECT!

Cheers! :)

Hewy's picture

It is just a book.

I don't want to go round in circles here, but it is just a book. It is very dangerous to attach "Belief" to "Spirituality". Spirituality is the essence of what it is to be human, therefore it has to be limitless and free and should open the mind and promote questioning, learning, acceptance and find it's own answers as to what the human condition is all about. If a person requires a book to tell them how to what to do and what not to do then that encourages a narrow minded juvenile approach to cognitive thought. 

I am human, I abhor religion as a concept. I believe any God who insists it's subjects stick to a petty minded set of guiding principles is nothing but a fascist dictator. If I had a God he would encourage us all to think for ourselves and chose our own path in life. Doing good towards others as I previously said is the default mode of humanity. Doing good to others in a religious sense always provide some form of caveat, believe or die? Believe or burn in hell? Believe or...

All religions as far as I am concerned are geared towards controlling the mind and treating it's subjects as a contemptible herd, so as to propagate it's own hegemonic principles. Religions served a purpose when we were primitive unlearned creatures who needed to be controlled as to develop cultural societies. We now stand on a precipice upon where reality and fantasy converge through the wonders of technology. Dreams can increasingly become reality. As a species we no longer need religion. It has served it's purpose. Instead of division we should unite. But each religion wants us to unite behind it's own particular flag and follow it's own narrow minded principles. That's because religion has now become an industry. It is a money making device aimed at subjugating the poorest followers for the gain of the most powerful. 

Burn all the books! And the flags! 

Where you are born is purely accidental. Nationalism in all forms is ridiculous. Pride should come from personal achievement. Controversy belongs to those who need it.

Anonymous's picture

What about burning flags?

What about burning flags?

Hewy's picture

I refer you to Bill Hicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBCkm9-LvRg

And as Bill's good friend says, " Case Fucking Closed!"

Anonymous's picture

Why does Bill Hicks speak for

Why does Bill Hicks speak for you?

Hewy's picture

Bill Hicks

Bill Hicks doesn't speak for me. He is a comedian. I used film as a media in which to illustrate my point once again as like I said I didn't want to go around in circles. Again, I'd written burn all the flags already.

lloydyspeaks's picture

Despicable Acts

I feel there is a point that may have been missed here and that is the fact of what that book burning may induce. I understand all points here and i am personally abhorred by the fact of people burning any types of books, from the Quran to The Bible to the Nazi Book Burnings. Setting any symbolic item on fire is a statement action which will cause offense and disrespect to whatever or whom so ever the burning is meant for. 

This action, in my opinion, is violent and aggressive, it is not something that anyone who truly believes in any of the beliefs that religions Simply and Spiritually teach. Unless of course they have been twisted and made to fit certain groups own beliefs! Hewy is right, all religions are contradictory. In my view they are basically used to propel mans compulsion to take basic moral teachings and form them into a regulatory system, which has people sitting in different potions of the pyramid of power. (Does God not teach in the 10 commandments, do not worship any other than me? Is this a form of worship??) 

The "Freedom of Speech" which is not a something which many, nay None, benefit from. Even whist young everyone is preprogrammed on how to talk/behave within certain circles and with certain types of people. This is called respecting others, which is something that all of the Holy Books teach. It is down to how the people wielding those book decided to either spread love and happiness and awaken spirituality and respect for others, or spew forth hatred and bile and arouse violence and vicious natures. 

Should burning a Holy Book be allowed, yes of course but should the persons who are doing this be shunned and disregarded by those who find this a disrespectful and deplorable action, yes. It is down to each individual to act as how they see fit, but there are consequences to actions. These should be from their own religion and by their community or may actually come from the people who they disrespect. It should not however be by the police or the government until any law is broken and the last time i checked this is not a crime. But for how long, that is the question and how long is it before there are repercussions? Performing acts such as this is sending out total negativity and I have no doubt they those who decided to take such actions will fall on their own flaming sword in one way or another. And that my friends is Karma. 

Anonymous's picture

Some wise words lloydyspeaks,

Some wise words lloydyspeaks, however...'Shunned and disregarded'. Is it your view that the unenlightened amongst us should be shunned and disregarded...or does your apparent Buddhistic world-view not lend you towards loving all, knowing that ignorance is merely a step towards enlightenment that we all go through, and to come back to the fold and understand and see the love in your own self is only precipitated by a loving hand from the outside world, we aren't perfect, and on our route to back to square one, we need a loving light, not a spell on the outsides of a judgemental society, which would surely only increase the negativity.

Anonymous's picture

The rules are...

if its my book i can do what the hell i want with it, if i want to burn it them ill burn it, if its not my book then no its just down right rude unless the owner of said book says otherwise.

EgyptianConniption's picture

True for regular books

That is true in most cases, but in this case we are talking about no ordinary books.  These are books which hold special significance.  They are not romance novels.  And for Muslims, each individual Quran is believed to be sacred, very similar to Christians who believe that the communion wafers actually become the body of Christ before they are eaten.

Hewy's picture

Good point. Well made!

HaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Pure gold comedy!

Anonymous's picture

maybe so but...

if your not religious then they hold no special significance at all, what then?.... lets just say the believers are right about everything and us non believers really are going to burn in hell for ever and ever amen/allah, then why the fun should we be bothered about burning a book?

EgyptianConniption's picture

Why the fun

Anonymous wrote:

if your not religious then they hold no special significance at all, what then?.... lets just say the believers are right about everything and us non believers really are going to burn in hell for ever and ever amen/allah, then why the fun should we be bothered about burning a book?

Why the fun should we be bothered about burning a book? Well, for the same reason we don't laugh loudly when our friend's parents pass away.  We certainly could.  It would be within our rights.  But we don't, because that would be mean.  It's called basic human decency.  You don't do things which are highly distressing to other people just to get a laugh.

Anonymous's picture

ofcourse it would be mean to

ofcourse it would be mean to laugh at someone being dead thats pretty obvious and nothing to do with what i said. Please read again and post a relevant comment.
My point was if we re goin to spend an eternity in hell for not believing then why should we be bothered about burnin a book. If indeed these books are so sacred to whoevers god they belong to, why dont he just stop them being burned? Is it that this God would rather wait until the non believer is dead then torture him forever? Sounds pretty darn evil to me, are you sure they re Gods books and not the Devils?

EgyptianConniption's picture

Fine, perhaps it comparing a

Fine, perhaps it comparing a death isn't a good comparison.

But my essential argument remains the same.  We can burn any books we want to.  If we don't believe in God, then certainly nothing's stopping us.  The reason we don't, is because it hurts people immensely, and if we're doing it for kicks, then that's just evil.

lloydyspeaks's picture

Protecting Freedom

EgyptianConniption wrote:

If we don't believe in God, then certainly nothing's stopping us.  The reason we don't, is because it hurts people immensely, and if we're doing it for kicks, then that's just evil.

It has been the people who are  claiming to believe in God that have been burning these Holy Books. Your right it is a matter of respect. Unfortunately there are people out there whose 'faith' has been warped. These books contain huge amounts of laws and rules of conduct which are open to interpretation to whomever are reading them. These people are doing this to cause a reaction, i think. Just because people have said that they should be able to burn whatever they like, it does not mean that they agree with it. It is a case of censorship of peoples behaviour and there is a freedom of expression that should not be quelled. If a law applied for this then that could snowball and the freedom to demonstrate and even to think how you choose could be censored also. I am sure that most would condone the disrespect this action shows but it is the acts of a very small minority that has chosen to partake in these acts. 

Freedom needs to be protected. People have fought for years to achieve this and people are fighting even now for the right to a better life out from under such totalitarian regimes.  

EgyptianConniption's picture

Discretion

lloydyspeaks wrote:

It has been the people who are  claiming to believe in God that have been burning these Holy Books. Your right it is a matter of respect. Unfortunately there are people out there whose 'faith' has been warped. These books contain huge amounts of laws and rules of conduct which are open to interpretation to whomever are reading them. These people are doing this to cause a reaction, i think. Just because people have said that they should be able to burn whatever they like, it does not mean that they agree with it. It is a case of censorship of peoples behaviour and there is a freedom of expression that should not be quelled. If a law applied for this then that could snowball and the freedom to demonstrate and even to think how you choose could be censored also. I am sure that most would condone the disrespect this action shows but it is the acts of a very small minority that has chosen to partake in these acts. 

Freedom needs to be protected. People have fought for years to achieve this and people are fighting even now for the right to a better life out from under such totalitarian regimes.  

I don't disagree with you. We have the right to freedom of speech, and that freedom must be protected, for everyone.  The difference is that we don't have to exercise that freedom all the time.  Adults sometimes choose not to exercise various freedoms, it's called discretion.

Anonymous's picture

no one is saying you have to

no one is saying you have to exercise your feedom of speech all the time, please read again and post a relevant comment.... i would like to be able to when i see fit though and that may be at anytime over anything depending on all sorts of different things. Any form of censorship is a form of control just like religion itself and anyone telling you any different is either an idiot or trying to control you.

EgyptianConniption's picture

Relevant

Anonymous wrote:
no one is saying you have to exercise your feedom of speech all the time, please read again and post a relevant comment.... i would like to be able to when i see fit though and that may be at anytime over anything depending on all sorts of different things. Any form of censorship is a form of control just like religion itself and anyone telling you any different is either an idiot or trying to control you.

I am posting relevant comments. They are exactly on point. You might disagree with them, and that's fine. It's called a discussion. Repeatedly telling someone to "read again and post a relevant comment" is nonsensical, condescending and not likely to make anyone come around to your point of view.

I agree that you should be able to exercise your freedom of speech whenever you see fit.  I never said otherwise.  Read again and post a relev.... er, nevermind.  I tire of this conversation.

Anonymous's picture

im sorry...

i didnt mean to be condecending, i just get frustrated with religious people telling me what i can and cant do, i dont want to burn any books but i want the right to be able to if i feel i must for whatever reason. So are you saying that your for freedom of speech but only if it dont upset anyone?

EgyptianConniption's picture

Ok

Yeah, I don't like religious folks telling me what to do either.  I think our views are more similar than we realize.

I'm for freedom of speech, without limits.  There can't be any limits, otherwise we run the risk of censorship and losing that freedom.

All I was saying (and I may have screwed up the delivery) was that just because one has the right to burn books, doesn't mean one has to.  Sometimes we choose not to exercise our rights because we want to be decent human beings and not upset people for the heck of it.  We do this all the time, in fact.  We choose not to be jerks just because we can.  Fred Phelps and the Koran-burners are mostly burning Korans just to piss off the Muslims, and in my opinion, that's shitty.  It's protected by free speech, and they have every right to do it.  But it's shitty.  Even though I'm not Muslim and I don't like religion in general.  Pissing people off just for the heck of it is mean.

Anonymous's picture

i agree....

whilst we can see that this is obviously just one group of extremists tryin to upset another group of extremists, Phelps would say otherwise and we must stay logical and not take his freedoms or we become just as bad as both sets of nutjobs by tryin to control him. The only right thing to do if you dont agree with him is to just ignore him like most people are or you just walk straight into his hate filled trap.

Hewy's picture

What?

The people who were burning the books didn't actually belong to anyone. It's not as though they went on a door to door Q'uaran-athon collection. They bought them, they made a symbolic gesture with a symbolic product. Yes, if one of those people came around my flat and stole my bloody Beano album I'd be well pissed off!... Beacause it's mine! NOT BECAUSE IT REPRESENTS MY WORSHIP OF DENNIS THE MENACE!

Anonymous's picture

Turn to God and none other

54% said YES???

May God have mercy on those people...amen.

lloydyspeaks's picture

Not a Buddist

Maybe i did run away with myself there for a moment...I was becoming slightly judgmental myself!  Disregard their actions yes, shunned no. I feel that any of these acts of burning sacred items to certain people should not be given the air time that it does. If people feel strongly enough about something then there are more constructive ways to make your voice heard. Most people do deserve to be heard and given a chance to express their views in a respectful manner. I do believe however that some people are just about spreading hate..The Westborough Baptist Church for one. I can not see how any God would condone that sort of behaviour.

And all though i am not religious, nor am i Buddhist, i do believe in God, but i do not believe in religion. For those people that find these 'burnings' offensive, i would suggest looking away, it is on their head. And for those who believe in Freedom of Expression, this is just that and we can not have a situation as in the Orwell Book, 1984, which ironically i would not be pleased if anyone felt the need to burn such a great work, but it is just a book and the meaning of that book belongs to me in the way in which i choose to remember it.

I think this maybe quite apt.

  • All that we are is a result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him  -  Buddah
Anonymous's picture

This thread is so

This thread is so frustrating. Of course people have the right to burn holy books. It doesn't necessarily spread hatred, and even if it does it doesn't incite violent hatred, except from those who are offended by it, so where does the problem lie? I think a symbolic gesture is preferable to direct violence. As for the the issue raised by a poster at the beginning of the thread, that we should punish the culprit and that "the holy book has done nothing wrong" well, that's debatable. I think a lot of the disgusting judgmental ideas, bigotries and exclusionary logic set out in most of the holy books make the books in themselves absolutely wrong as tools of moral and political instruction. If religious people today can find it in themselves to overlook the explicit support of slavery in the three major Judaic religions, whilst holding on to the what they see as being the underlying message ergo inherent value of the text, its a matter of personal choice. I think if any rational, reasonable human being takes exception to any of these messages and/or the death, damage and despotism they caused through the centuries, all power to them. Burn the books. Religion is not some special area of academic discourse, it's open. Don't forget, had the Catholic church been spared all criticism we'd still be in the dark ages oppressed by absolutist monarchies living in our own filth paying taxes to the church (for any western European/Americans of that line of descent). If we start granting religions with special protections in public or scientific discourse it retards the entire process of human and scientific development. The right to burn, satirize and openly question fall in the same bracket. Lets not be naive where it count, even if we do still want to believe in fairies.

Shasha's picture

death vs. religion

now im reading that in afhganistan they've killed 8 UN workers, thats so sad, and all because some jerkass in florida burned the koran.  Human lives are always worth more than some stupid holy book

Hewy's picture

Couldn't have put it better!

Ditto!

Anonymous's picture

who killed who? I don't think

who killed who? I don't think its fair to put all the fault on the burners.. the killers should shoulder at least part of the blame don't you think?

Shasha's picture

i think you misunderstood my

i think you misunderstood my comment, I was saying that human lives are more important than if some book was burned. yes, it's bad that a holy book was burned, but it's a million times worse to kill someone

Anonymous's picture

YES OF COURSE

You should be able to burn any book you want to as long as its your property. Have you guys actually read some of these books? I find the the nature of God as portrayed in the Bible and the Koran extremely offensive and oppresive. Why should I have to respect this creature and the sordid views of its followers? My actions are not causing any physical harm on anyone. And if its about mental harm, I think putting up with religion in many aspects of my life is mental harm enough. Burning the book is my release. Grow a pair and learn to tolerate the fact that some of us are THAT offended by your religion. I hate it and I should be allowed to hate it. Whats next, ban drawing religious cartoons? You shouldnt legislate respect. If it incites one group to violence, then the problem is really that group - find a way to deal with that instead of making me out to be the criminal.

Anonymous's picture

Are You An Atheist?

Just like what it says on the subject. Are you? Sounds like you're one of those people who refuses to believe in God and hates religions in all aspects, particularly Islam and Christianity.

Hewy's picture

Neither an ism or an ist.

I pity those who rely on an imaginary friend who was created by society to control the masses via the largest form of divide and conquer. So pity yes. Not hate. One day we may all see the same light. The light that is within us all which will lead us to take control of our own destiny whilst being mindful of each other and our collective responsibilities toward the evolution of propagation of the species which will allow us to know inner and outer space and explore them both in peace.

Religious people believe they are right and the rest of us are wrong. I find that stance supremely arrogant, dangerous and obstructive.

Anonymous's picture

May God give you light

Don't bother having pity for me and other people who choose to believe in God and try to follow the words in the Holy Books. Instead, we pity you who think that God is an imaginary friend or something like that. We are not being arrogant. We just do what we should do: believing in God and following His true path.

Hewy's picture

I am God.

I am God. You are God. I am and possess my own light so do you. You choose to project your light onto narrow-minded, out-dated principles when it should light the way to the peaceful evolution of humanity and it's true nature which is unity, oneness and successful co-existence. Come on, jump aboard with the rest of evolution and sail into the future to explore inner and outer space together as one in peace.

Take a look around you. Right now. Choose anything, a door frame maybe, a window pane anything. You are no more or no less important than that. Take a look outside. Choose anyone out there, a tramp, a murderer, a vicar, a child. Again, you are no more or less important than any of those people. See the rest of the world, nature in it's beauty, pollution in it's ugliest, again you are no more or less important than any of that. Now look to the sky, during the day you have rolling clouds maybe some sun, rain, hail, sleet or snow. You are no more or less important than that. At night,  if it were not for the great distances involved one planet would be indistinguishable from the other and the sky would be pure white, what wee see even on the clearest nights and with the most advanced equipment is only permitted by the passing of time and change.

Now. Look at yourself. You are no more or less important than anything else out there. Anything is possible. Now, bearing this in mind, all that I have said here. Who do you think has a more wondrous existence? Someone like me who is fascinated by the endless probabilities of possible or someone who, being a follower of religion chooses to follow the limited possibilities of the probable?

lloydyspeaks's picture

Well I've read both of your

Well I've read both of your comments and i think you're both being narrow minded. If people choose to believe in a religion (not the same as having a faith in God) that is up to them. Not all who follow religion, which ever one, shove their views down peoples necks and some people who don't believe in religion or faith will shove their views down peoples necks and both of these types think that what they believe to be right etc, etc...blar, blar, blar.

Both of you are right if that is what you choose to believe in, people must be allowed to think and practice whatever view point on whatever it is that they so wish. Believing in God is not wrong, believing that every word which a man interprets as God's Holy Word is wrong. ALL people are fallible and this is why religion is in the state it is, because it is created by man for the purpose of power and rule and greed etc.

If people get comfort out of their believes, whatever they are, then how can that be wrong? If someone chooses hate over love then that is not from God as they say, it is from themselves and how they choose to act. God is meant to be love after all... whether your God is the sun, the moon, the door frame or in your heart...

 “I do not care to know your various theories about God. What is the use of discussing all the subtle doctrines about the soul? Do good and be good. And this will take you to freedom and to whatever truth there is....”       -  Buddha

lloydyspeaks's picture

I've just read that back an i

I've just read that back an i didn't mean to sound so harsh with the narrow minded comment (do not judge and all that!) I actually meant obviously, engrossed with ones own comments that not taking full appreciation for the other view point being offered, said a a wholly respectful and 60's love for all humanity kind of way, of course..

Hewy's picture

Hmmm,

You said not all religions push their views down your necks and then (mis) quoted a Buddha.

Name me a religion that doesn't force it's opinion on others. By their very nature they have to because their messages conflict and religion is based on belief! Belief means you have asserted yourself of enough evidence on a given subject to throw away and dismiss anything to the contrary.

The trouble with believing in a god is that there is absolutely no evidence which means those who do follow religions are narrow minded as they don't think beyond the very scant information that is evident. They choose to believe more through fear of the unknown and superstition than evidence. Embrace the unknown. Accept that you know nothing and you will be set free to find out anything you wish.

lloydyspeaks's picture

Mis Quoted Buddha?? Should i

Mis Quoted Buddha?? Should i have Said :

.."I do not care to know your various theories about God. What is the use of discussing all the subtle doctrines about the soul? Do good and be good. And this will take you to freedom and to whatever truth there is." -   Shakyamuni Buddha?

And i think that you have misunderstood me. I said not all people who follow religion shove it down everyones necks. Religion is what it is and it is up to people to choose what they want to believe in. You say there is no proof that God exists...therefore there is no proof that he doesn't. Of course evolution etc, etc..blar blar..the missing Link between primates and humans is meant to be some small lemur..?? Okay..so this proves to me that apes came from lemurs..right? And of course there is the whole complexity of the big bang..where you have our planet which has basically about 20 specific scientific principals which are all required to create and sustain actual life on a planet. Then you have the very fact of the natural selection and the long tongue butterflies..also an idea founded by Darwin, who in actual course thought that God was the ultimate lawgiver..(is this the law of gravity, the law of relativity, Archimedes principal, Newtons laws of motion?? ) These are all laws which have be found on other planets..where??

Anyhow I am not interesting in trying to prove the existence of God. This is a more eloquent example of what i am trying to say: http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/Stephen_Hawking__God.html

Back to the point :

It is each person's right to believe whatever they wish, which I am under the understanding this is what this whole thread is getting at. People have the freedom to believe and follow whatever it is they wish, even if it offends and is not conformist or enlightened or whatever else you want to call it. But if we all sit there and criticize something so strongly about not being enlightened enough instead of seeing peoples beliefs manifested in the boundless facets that they are and each manifestation on it's own merit with goods and bad then i would invite you to become more open minded and philosophical about these issues and not stereotype all people who believe in religions are followers of limited possibilities. Instead maybe think about the very essence of believing in some higher unknown power leaves the doors open to the impossible whereas science is the law of the limited and known probability??

Kuncen's picture

Extinction of religion

On a related/unrelated note, I found this article interesting.  It basically states that religion may become extinct in nine countries in the near future:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

Kuncen

Hewy's picture

I have no theories on God.

I have no theories on God lloydy!

I have no belief in God therefore I have no theory. The onus on proving the existence of God lies with those who believe in it's existence. You can't ask someone to prove something doesn't exist, because it doesn't exist. That's a defensive almost childlike response.

Also people do not have the RIGHT to believe what they want in most countries. Luckily we live in a multi-cultural society which attempts to accept all believers but this has done nothing but cause tension within different "tribes" if you will. The thing I am most proud of this country I live in is that we at least attempt to be tolerant. The trouble is with beliefs is that they are inflexible, unlike ideas. When you believe in something you fight to the death to defend it and any affront to your belief becomes an affront to you.

This whole debate started because of the burning of some books by people who set off to offend, they were fundamentalist Christians and they burnt the Qu'ran as an anti Muslim statement. A pointless exercise which still managed to rile people.

There is a world of difference between believing in God and following a religion, and there is a difference between these two things and spirituality. Primiative man believed in things they could see, things they could use and things they realised as they evolved and began to question morality, were actually responsible for life itself. Wisdom gained you status within the community. This is how monarchy's developed. The head of a community can only ever be as successful as the community itself, so the vested interest is in the community being happy and productive. People who became greedy and wished to control more communities for their own gain and used fear of the unknown to control people into doing there bidding separated the reverence people held for the elements which could be seen, felt, heard and tasted and replaced it with unknown invisible forces of evil and good who punished those who didn't believe. Religion was a device intended to divide and conquer humanity and to hold it spellbound and easy to control all for material gain. Religion and war are intertwined. If religion had not came about war would never have occurred. Sadly though, if religion were to be wiped out now we would probably wipe each other out because we have, mostly at least, become totally afraid of the unknown.

Religion is dying as it should. Slowly but surely all religions are dying out so hopefully the unknown will slowly lose its fear factor and people will get back to their true nature, which is that of spiritual beings embracing the unknown and searching for more answers then before long we could colonise (note I didn't say conquer) the universe. 

Paper is paper. The only reason I could have understood people kicking off about book burning would have been because it was a waste of trees. Religious people are always looking for a fight. They sit and wait for people to annoy them so it can give them a chance to be heard.

PS : SAVE TREES!!! EAT BEAVERS!!!

HormaFamb's picture

Hi everyone

Just making my earliest mail at talkingskull.com, which seems to be a wonderful forum!

Kuncen's picture

Hello and welcome!  We try to

Hello and welcome!  We try to keep the discussion clean and respectful around here, but if you see any inappropriate or rude comments, just click the "Flag as inappropriate" link.  Don't be shy about it, as it helps the entire community.

Kuncen